My guest this week is Jackie Hudiburg: a massage therapist and an integrative MindBody coach. And she’s here to discuss exactly what that means, how she serves her clients, and why she’s decided to integrate this approach in her massage therapy practice.
Jackie has been a body worker for over 20 years, and she’s known for a long time that there’s always more going on than just the physical. Since she’s really started embracing that intuitive knowing, she’s been able to serve people at the highest level. But when the pandemic hit, even when we got out of quarantine, she had to step up because she noticed people’s bodies were still in lockdown.
Tune in this week to discover the power of healing by integrating the MindBody connection. Jackie is sharing the transformations she’s seen in her clients as she’s adapted her healing process, and what changes when we can drop out of our mind, into our body, and really access the truth.
Join me in Self Healing Masters, a program to heal your health, wealth, and relationships. Enrollment gets you lifetime access to my integrated healing approach so you can finally live your life’s purpose and help others. I can’t wait to see you there!
What You’ll Learn From This Episode:
- How Jackie’s journey started as a massage therapist and integrative MindBody coach.
- Why the physical work that Jackie does is so transformative for people.
- Where she integrates the spiritual and the MindBody side into her practice.
- What is showing up for her clients in their physical bodies since all the lockdown and quarantine of the past couple of years.
- The work that Jackie had to do on herself before she was ready to do the deeper work with her clients.
- What Jackie sees as the crucial differences between therapy and coaching.
- How integrating the MindBody connection has allowed her to help her clients and really move their energy and stop suffering.
Listen to the Full Episode:
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Full Episode Transcript:
Welcome to More Than Mindset, the only podcast that bridges the gap between spirituality and success. Go beyond the mind with clarity and confidence Coach Kim Guillory and learn how to integrate your passion to serve with your skills and experience to create a business you love. Let’s get started.
Kim: Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to the Kim and Jackie show today. Seriously, this is the More Than Mindset show and my guest today is Jackie, who is a massage therapist and also an integrative MindBody coach. And we are going to talk about what does that mean? Like, what is it that you are doing? And why have you integrated this approach in your massage therapy practice?
So Jackie, would you like to introduce yourself?
Jackie: Hi, I’m Jackie Hudiburg. I’m a massage therapist and an integrative MindBody coach. And I want to tell you a little bit about how I got here first of all, what brought me here. I mean I’ve been a body worker for over 20 years, so I’ve been touching a lot of bodies, always having a sense that there’s more going on than just the physical. So I’ve always had that sort of intuitive knowing in me.
But when the pandemic hit and people were put in quarantine, when I first went back to work when they came out of quarantine, what I noticed was bodies were literally in lock down. So it was like the lock down that we were in in the world was physically showing up in the body. I mean, I have never touched such tight bodies in my life.
And literally, I would put my hands on them and I would think to myself, “Wow, they are in lock down. The whole being is in lock down.” And so that has continued, I’ve continued to feel that in people’s bodies, even over the past year. And so I felt like there needed to be something more. Just doing massage is awesome. I mean, massage itself is awesome. I mean, we need to be touched in order to live. I mean, if babies are not touched, they die, right? So physical touch is number one.
So massage therapy is awesome for that. I always say you’re treating the nervous system first when you’re doing body work, any kind of body work. So many times in life we’re going, going going, we’re busy, we’re mentally busy, emotionally there’s a lot going on, spiritually sometimes for people there’s a lot going on. And so we’re always going and the nervous system is, I find with most people that I am working on, the nervous system is in that fight or flight response. So it’s in that danger response. And it keeps that adrenaline going.
Kim: Could you give me an example of what you’re finding in the physical bodies? Like what are the clients coming in and saying or what are you noticing that is different?
Jackie: Okay, so what happens is I touch a body, it is extremely tight. So when you’re doing massage, or any kind of body work that’s hands on, you’re feeling that tissue and you should be able to sink into the tissue. People’s tissues, it’s like brick. It’s like concrete, you can’t sink into the tissue. That’s the first thing I notice.
And then as you’re working on them, there’s different things that happen but either people are not breathing or the breath is very shallow. The tissue isn’t responding or the tissue starts to respond and sink, but it comes back up and it continually is tightening. And so people are not able to relax the body. The physical body that I’m feeling under my hands is not able to soften. That’s pretty much what I’m finding.
And then people come back repeatedly with the same issues, nothing’s changing. They can get a massage one week, I can get them to like where I can sink into the tissue. But then they come back the next week and they’re in the same space. They’re like concrete again.
Kim: I’m curious if you were noticing this before we met and you were already looking for something else, or was the conversation like, “Hmm, this might be something else.” I’m just curious personally.
Jackie: It’s probably both but I mean I’ve always known.
Kim: You were already noticing?
Jackie: I’ve always known. I’ve always known that. I mean, I was introduced to that in massage school. There’s always been clients over the years that I know something else is going on. The body is just really, really tight and it is just not letting go and it’s not changing. Even week after week, there’s no change.
Kim: So is it that you just noticed there were more bodies?
Kim: Yeah, yeah, interest.
Jackie: During the pandemic it was like every body that was getting on my table felt like that.
Kim: Yeah, it is absolutely unbelievable how, as massage therapists, we can tell the internal state by the body.
Jackie: Yeah, when you ask people to take a deep breath and it’s like, “Huh.”
Jackie: They have no sense of what it feels like to fill the whole body with breath. Some get it, some cannot.
Kim: It’s almost like the inability to take it all in. Like the inability to take the breath in and the inability to take the change in like. I can only look at one little inkling at a time, I can only take one little breath at a time. So it’s like this survival mode.
Jackie: Yeah, pretty much. They’re in lock down.
Kim: Okay, sorry, I interrupted you. You go ahead with your story.
Jackie: No, no, no, it’s okay. It’s fine. I like to dialogue because it’ll pop in more stuff into my head. But I always tell the story, it was probably about a year ago, I was working on a body and that body was not changing. And I was getting frustrated. And so this voice says, “Well, that’s because you’re working on the physical body, you need to be working on the soul.” And I’m like, “Okay, well, what does that look like?”
And so that started my journey into more of the MindBody connection stuff. And so the first place I went was Reiki. That was the first place I went. I was familiar with Reiki, I had had some training and Reiki. And that was one of the intuitive senses I got, was like go further your training in Reiki.
And that piece was a game changer for me because now I could sense, of course, you’re working hands off the body. So now I can sense not only the physical tissue, but now I can sense maybe what is going on in the– I want to say it as the energy body.
Jackie: Like what is going on with the person?
Kim: I agree. I agree 100%, I’m there with you. It’s fascinating.
Jackie: And it’s not something I particularly practice, but it is kind of the you know, the hands are light and so you’re feeling that rhythm. The cranial sacral rhythm, when you’re doing Reiki and you’re off the body, it’s like you’re feeling this other rhythm. I have to be careful not to, I mean, I’m sure it’s all the same, right? They’re all working together, because I can feel it like the cranial rhythm sometimes. But it’s also even subtler than that.
Kim: I think we’ve now entered a time where we can have this conversation and it not be so woo. I think we have come to that awareness. And I wanted to have this conversation with you because you moving more into this and actually getting greater benefits is the message that we want to share. When you can’t even feel the energy moving, it’s just like blah.
Jackie: Yeah. And so it’s interesting because working with Reiki, it’s a whole different experience. So physically, like in massage when I have hands on it feels like a lock down. Like literally the body is in lock down, the tissue is like concrete, the body is guarded.
When I’m doing Reiki and I’m above the body, it feels like depletion. It feels like there’s nothing moving. Sometimes I put my hands over people and I’m like, “Are they alive?” Like literally, it feels that way. As I do the work, I start feel things move. But other things come up into my awareness and then I can ask my clients questions.
I can validate what I’m feeling by asking them questions. And that starts the dialogue, many times about what is actually going on with them. And it’s so fascinating to me, if people are willing to share what’s going on with them, and it could be at any level, the energy begins to flow, the body begins to soften.
So that connection there, as they start to process emotional stuff and the energy starts to move, things start to soften. When I started to see that, and I’ll share an experience. I want to share an experience that actually was probably extremely profound to me which got me really excited about this work. But I thought to myself, “This is it. This is how I can help people. This is the missing piece.”
It’s like how do we get people to drop into their bodies enough that they can actually feel what’s really happening? As we know, the mind can make up all kinds of stories about what’s going on and we believe that. But once we get into the body and we access the truth, it can be completely different.
So to me, it’s fascinating work. And as soon as I found the work, as soon as I started doing Reiki and then I started doing the coaching work with you, I thought, “Yes, yes, this is it.” Because forever and ever I kept seeing mindset stuff on social media. I kept hearing people say, “Oh, well, you just need to think this way.”
Sorry, guys, I’m getting excited. I’m like, “No, no, you can’t just think your way out of something.” There’s stuff that happens in the body and the emotional system and the nervous system. And I’m like, “Thinking isn’t going to just pull you out of there. Because as soon as something happens that triggers an old experience, you’re reacting and you can’t think your way out of there.”
And so the missing piece was the embodiment piece. Getting people to go into their bodies, getting people to– Because I always say the truth is in the body. But you have to be present enough to sink in there. And you also have to feel safe enough to sink in there.
Kim: Yeah, the flesh is telling the story. And without the safety, like people are afraid to be heard even, afraid to be witnessed and are not getting that because so many other people are not present. And so it’s like this kind of either trying to fix or wanting to mindset it away. And I think we’re saying the same thing in a different language. It’s like the integration and embodiment is actually what creates the wholeness, which creates the wellness.
Jackie: And that was the missing piece. I mean, I just couldn’t figure out how to integrate the two. And also doing my own work, right, because there was a sense in me that knew not to go in too deep with others because I myself hadn’t quite cleared out my own stuff. And so I knew that in order to do that deeper work I had to do the deeper work on myself first. I’ve had too many experiences with people trying to do deep work with me who haven’t done their deep work. And you can tell.
Kim: It’s awful.
Jackie: And it’s not safe. I wanted to be that safe container for people, I did not want to be that body worker.
Kim: I believe it’s the wounded healer that is projecting, reflecting, and trying to fix. That’s my mission, is to help coaches, body workers, therapists, practitioners really become whole first. It’s the same thing in our marriages, or in our relationships, our partnerships. We can’t expect the other person to make us whole, the wholeness is our personal responsibility.
Jackie: Yeah, and I love that you said that, because my relationships are different now. For so long I expected others to make me happy. And if they weren’t doing what they were supposed to be doing, I was suffering. And so that was a game changer too, realizing, “Oh wow, other people are not responsible for my happiness.” Wow, and this makes life a whole lot easier because it’s on me.
Jackie: I get to do the work and I get to choose. I always say that is like my tagline, I get to choose. And a therapist used to say that to me all the time, you get to choose. I never understood the depth of that, but I do now.
Kim: Can we go there for a second? What would you say to someone who’s listening that they respect and honor massage therapy, they love that aspect of it but they do also realize that there’s more.
And then when we start talking about coaching, and you talk about therapy, how would you explain the difference for someone who wants to know the difference between coaching and therapy? Like what we do as integrative MindBody coaches compared to getting a massage and then going to the therapist? What would be is there a such word as synopsis or your conclusion? Because you’ve done it all, right?
Jackie: That’s so funny, because you asked me that and a little bit of resistance comes up because I’m like, “Oh, I don’t want to rock the boat too much.”
Kim: But you respect all of it.
Jackie: I do.
Kim: So I’m just wondering what, because I know what the difference is for me personally. I’m just curious now that you’re doing this work and you’re integrating the energy medicine as well as the coaching. Because you’ve done therapy, right?
Jackie: Yeah, it’s given me tools along the way to use and I think part of doing the coaching– I don’t know what it would be like to do coaching without therapy first because I have the skills and tools to regulate myself. So I can go into coaching, feel safe that I know how to regulate myself if a trigger gets hit in me that gets my nervous system fired up.
But I feel like coaching, this is the difference. This is the difference to me, I feel like therapy they’re rocking you. Whereas coaching goes right in. I mean we’re going to come in gently, depending on the client, but you’re going to go in. You’re going to start creating those questions that have people thinking about what the answers are for themselves.
And presence. So not all therapists, and I have had one in my lifetime, that we always meditated first before we began the session to help me get in my body. I think that’s a difference too. Because the answers lie in here, in therapy you’re here, which is very frustrating to me. I used to get frustrated with therapy because of that.
They’re really up here and so you can keep telling your stories. It’s hard to get to the truth unless you come into the body. So that’s how I see, at least the coaching that we do, that that’s different than therapy.
Kim: Yeah, I want to say that too. Specifically, the integrative MindBody coaching compared to mindset coaching. What we are talking about is a whole different animal. We use the body to access the wholeness and the healing to regulate and create stability first. Because we’re massage therapists, because we understand the MindBody connection, and also how the energetic body works, that I do believe the coaching that we are doing is different.
I work with other coaches that come in who were mindset coaches who want to bring in more of this healing aspect for their clients. So I’m glad you said that.
So what I hear you saying is, what is different for you is that we actually create this container to learn the tools for regulation and stability. Emotional, spiritual, mental, like the whole entire body, the whole entire systems of the body.
Jackie: Yeah, whereas therapy is a lot up here. I mean, now there’s all kinds of therapies that are coming into the body too, which is awesome.
Kim: Well, therapists are integrating coaching in their practice, just like massage therapists are now integrating coaching in their practice, which is what we’re doing. And I love that you bring in the energy medicine, as I call it, because it is another additive to it, an important piece. Especially when the body doesn’t really have a rhythm that’s noticeable because it’s so checked out. The person is so checked out, the systems are not on board.
So you bringing the energy work in, in order just to prime and to be able to bring that back in from an outside source. And then using the coaching to help them learn the tools for themselves on how to stabilize and regulate. I love that you bring it all together.
Jackie: Yeah, I’m playing with it right now because I love to play. And I think about the way I’m doing it kind of is like we’re talking, I’m getting kind of the story of what’s going on, asking some questions. Kind of starting to see where they’re at, how much are they here or how much can they get in here? I’m watching that as I start to converse with with a client.
So far it’s going like midway. It’s like we get to a certain point and so far what I’m finding is most people can only go so far into their body, they can’t drop down. So then I put them on the table. So I get to feel what’s kind of going on. It’s information for me as to maybe where they are blocked and just what is going on in general. And then they get to relax into their body and more comes up. It’s a slow process.
Kim: Yeah, the resistance that we create within ourselves to protect could be a pretty thick wall.
For those who are listening, she’s saying here and here. So we’re on YouTube live also, and so in video it’s like pointing to the head saying most people are intellectually in their head. And then pointing to the heart is just dropping down into the body. It takes time just to get present and come below the chin.
Seriously, it’s a big deal. And it is a protective mechanism. It is not a default. It is not a defect. There is nothing wrong with the person. It is actually the way your brain and your neurology has set up this mechanism of safety. Like in order to be safe in the world I need to protect, and so we put up these walls. But then we don’t realize that we shut out the light. We shut out everything.
Jackie: Yeah. You know, what we shut out, as much as we’re shutting out we don’t get to take in. So people are struggling with I can’t feel joy, I can’t feel ease. I’m stuck.
Kim: Jackie, I’m curious, what do you notice or what do you believe is the reason for so much distrust? I’m just curious for myself even. Is it because we get ridiculed? Is it because we get put down? Is it because we get pushed away? Why do you think? Is it just not being heard? Is it from childhood stuff? Or is it from living in this somewhat vicious world at times? What is your thought?
Jackie: That’s a big question.
Kim: I know, right. But I have a wide open head center and I’m super curious, and I love to ask questions, even when they don’t matter.
Jackie: So do I, so my head goes, “Whoa!” I mean, I think it’s probably a mixture of things, right? It’s like we come into the world and we are instantly conditioned. You know, “Here are the rules, this is the way to act, this is the way to be, this is what you do.”
Kim: This is us in our family and what we do, and this is them. And this is how you need to protect yourself. And this is how you need to be careful.
Jackie: And you don’t say this, and you don’t say that, and you better kiss this person and give them a hug when they come in, even though you might feel uncomfortable, you do it. Because those things, I think, you know, it’s like we come into the world, I mean, I hate to say it, but I think boundaries are instantly pushed through. I mean, it’s like as children we have a sense of what we’re comfortable with him and not comfortable with. And we are made to.
Kim: Yeah, we’re taught to override what we feel is correct for us.
Jackie: Yeah. And then I think a lot of times –
Kim: In order to connect and to get along with the community that we have been birthed into.
Jackie: Yes. And a lot of times, I mean, it’s not right or wrong, but I feel like so many people are not taught how to feel their emotions, how to communicate their emotions. And so I think we are more or less taught to just repress them. I hate to say it. And so we learn from a very young age to swallow things.
And then you go out into the world and then you start getting your feelings hurt and different things start to happen. And then we feel shame and we repress more. So I think it’s like a buildup of things.
Kim: Yeah, I’m thinking of– What you just said brought this to mind, one of my family members. And we were talking one day, and it’s one of my in-laws. And I was like, I wasn’t sure if it was in between getting approval or apologetic about some of the things that I say on social media or whatever.
And she was like, “Well, I don’t disagree. It’s just we don’t say that.” Like it’s inappropriate, right? Like, “Yeah, what you’re saying, I believe also. But you don’t say that. That’s not okay.” Or like it’s kind of the thing you talk about in the car, not at the event. It’s like that kind of thing. And I was like, “Oh, that’s interesting.”
Because the way I was responding to it as if I were being rejected because of my own story, my own wounds. So when I didn’t get the validation or the approval, you know, it was kind of like this pull away, not being associated with me to protect themselves from what people thought about them if they were associated with me and I was saying these things. I took it as there was something wrong with me, no one liked me, I’m rejected. You know, whatever, whatever, whatever the story was that came up.
And in that conversation I was like, “Oh, isn’t that interesting that I get to say the inappropriate stuff that everyone is thinking, and no one wants to say? How freaking fair is that?” But it did help me to understand where my old story of rejection and abandonment and that not good enough and not worthy enough, and the whole self-image thing was coming into play.
Jackie: Yeah, and I think about, you know, in the trauma world there’s big T, little t, and then it’s all relative, right? All in between. So I just think in general, as children, we tend to get some of our essence squashed.
Kim: And I think it’s innocently also. I think that our parents and grandparents and everyone else was just trying to survive. It’s just that we are now in a time where we can have a new and different experience. And so it’s that giving ourselves permission to have it when we’re afraid that we’re stepping on toes, or rejecting someone else, or blaming, or any of that stuff.
I don’t see it that way. There’s no one in my life that I think is responsible for the experience that I had. I do believe that everyone does the best that they can, I do, wholeheartedly.
Jackie: Oh, I do, yeah.
Kim: I think we’re all just trying to be individuals and we’re having a hard time giving ourselves permission to be individual.
Jackie: Yeah, I agree.
Kim: So how can we help them get into their body so they can tap into their individuality? I feel like that’s what we do, or that’s what you are doing also.
Jackie: Yeah, I think individuality, essence– I call it essence, you call it individuality, same thing. But yeah, how do you want to show up in the world? What do you want to bring to the world? What do you want to be in the world? What excites you? What satisfies you? What brings you to life? Right? No more of this death stuff.
Kim: Get rid of the brown M&Ms, pull out the Skittles.
Jackie: Yeah, we do not have to suffer. I think that is the biggest piece that I’ve learned from all the work we do, and in Self Healing Masters, and with the other coaches.
Kim: I used to think it was the victim mode, but actually I see it now more as martyr. It’s more than people pleaser and the wanting other people to feel okay and to not feel rejected or whatever. And that’s in us, that we’re trying to protect.
And so this past year I’ve seen more martyr behavior than victim behavior. Like I’m the better person if I allow this abuse, or if I allow this dysfunction. Or like I’m the better person, I get the graces to go to heaven. Does that make sense?
Kim: I’m seeing a little bit more of that, like taking the higher road kind of thing. And I’m like, “What if there is no road?”
Jackie: Yeah, I’m thinking about that now that you said that. I see it a lot, actually.
Kim: Victim is it happened to me, so I do believe it starts that way. It happened to me and I don’t want it to happen to someone else, so I’m going to kill off myself in order to make sure that doesn’t happen to someone else.
Jackie: Yeah, I did that for a long time, so I can completely 100% relate to that. And finding your way through that, right? Let’s just say with my son, who’s had a lot of mental health issues, and it was like I was going to do everything I could to save this kid. Of course, the mother in me, I mean, that’s what we do. But it went past that.
So when I began to change and do my own work, it’s interesting how when you begin to model the work, you begin to model the change, the other people around you kind of step up and do the same. So all we really have to do is be ourselves. And it helps other people by being who we are, because it gives them permission to be who they are.
Kim: 100%. I think that’s the hardest part, like when I’m working with the coaches is to get them to see it’s no, actually, you have to step into it first. And then they will choose if they want to come along with who you really are or if they want to keep this game going. It’s like that’s kind of where you decide.
So they will either fall away, because you’re not what they want you to be, which is not you. Or they will come along and grow with you. And then what we’re not seeing is the seven generations back, seven generations forward. I do believe we are standing in the gap of the generational patterning, conditioning, the messaging that we received, just by giving ourselves permission.
And for me it’s not even about empowerment and that kind of stuff. It is about health and wellness. It’s about my body. And that’s what I think is different for us as massage therapists, is the body is priority. Whereas mindset coaching kind of throws the body out.
Kim: Like a peasant, get out of here body, you’re making too much trouble.
Jackie: It’s funny when you said that, I’m still working part time in the spa so I work a lot of bodies. And it’s amazing to me how people do not take care of their body, their vehicle. It’s like they think that it’s supposed to just run. And it doesn’t have any emotions, it just runs, right? We don’t need to do anything for it, it should just run.
Kim: Who do we think is supposed to be responsible for it?
Jackie: I don’t know.
Kim: I mean, I’m working on this and have been for most of my life.
Jackie: I honestly think people just forget, it’s like they’re all up here, so this does not exist.
Kim: It’s the bypassing.
Jackie: They’re just moving through life all up here. The body isn’t even seen almost. That’s how I experience it with people. It’s like they don’t see that they are in a body because they’re so up here focused on what’s in front of them until it screams. It starts to talk, it’ll start to talk first, if you don’t listen it starts screaming.
Kim: Then they’re mad at it and they blame it on time, and age, and old injuries, because that’s what we’ve been taught.
Jackie: Oh yeah, that’s a big one.
Kim: That’s what we’ve been taught. So much of the medical community is like, “Oh, that’s going to really hurt when you’re 60.” So guess what, the suggestibility just was planted into the memory bank.
Kim: All right, my friend, we’re right at the time. So I just wanted to offer a little bit of space if there’s anyone that you wanted to speak to in particular about what you do or maybe how this has affected you in your own personal life. Or anything that you wanted to leave that I didn’t ask you.
Jackie: You know, I feel like where I came from, being up here, always feeling like I had to keep moving forward. Had to feel like I had to push through, force my way into creating what I wanted. Which I didn’t even realize what I– Well, I kind of knew what I wanted, but I had no idea how to create it. But I just kept trying to force things. And I kept hitting walls and I ended up pretty much just feeling stuck, heavy, depressed, anxious.
So there I am in this body with all this going on, and I’m like, “It’s got to be better than this. There’s got to be something I can do. There’s got to be something different. This cannot be how life is supposed to be.” And so I think about people in those predicaments. You know, people in those situations where they just feel trapped. It’s trapped, and feeling like they can’t move forward, feeling like they don’t even know the next step and so they start to sink.
I want to be able to help people see another way because I myself didn’t see another way. And now I do and it has created a whole new world with a lot more possibilities. And I am a lot lighter and a lot more joyful. And I want to be able to help people experience that.
Kim: Love that. I love that you’ve experienced that on so many deep levels and that you share it so openly because it really is beautiful when I see your posts. And we just had a retreat in Gulf Shores and Jackie was our practitioner, so she was doing energy work on the clients who were there and also body work. And watching their faces change, their eyes light up, it’s like life reentered their physical body, their vessel. It was fascinating.
So for those of you who are health and wellness practitioners, or massage therapists, or coaches who want to integrate the energy work or the Reiki in your practice, Jackie does have a training for that. So that’s something that she does offer, as well as working with private clients, one on one clients. So you said you’re still doing bodywork at the spa. And you’re now doing online MindBody coaching.
Jackie: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and Reiki, and the mixture of it, and teaching classes. Yeah, I’ll be teaching a class here in December. A Reiki one class.
Kim: Yeah, so if you’re feeling a little like your light is dimmed or out and you want distant Reiki healing, Jackie is available for that. So we will link her information below if you want to book a call or just kind of meet her for yourself and find out what’s going on.
I am honored for you to be a part of the community, to be a part of Self Healing Masters as well as one of the integrative MindBody coaches. It’s been a fascinating experience. I know we have a lot of work to do. We’ll have events coming up and fun stuff like that. So thank you for coming on the show and sharing.
Jackie: Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Thanks for listening to this episode of More Than Mindset.
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