Ep #119: Thriver’s Guilt with Andee Martineau

Welcome to More Than Mindset, the only podcast that bridges the gap between spirituality and success. Go beyond the mind with clarity and confidence coach Kim Guillory and learn how to integrate your passion to serve with your skills and experience to create a business you love. Let’s get started.

Kim: Hello, hello, and welcome back to the show. I am talking about thriver’s guilt today. And I’ve invited one of the integrative coaches, Andee, she is a parenting coach, to have this conversation with me. And what we want to talk about is what is thriver’s guilt? And how does it affect you, your career, your money, your bank account, like all of the things. How we do anything is how we do everything so it will show up in every area of your life.

So I want to let Andee introduce herself. Andee, welcome to the show.

Andee: Hey, I’m so happy to be here and talk about this. Especially the topic, I’m really excited to dive into it. But just by way of introduction, my name is Andee Martineau and I am a parenting coach. I specifically help moms go from the corrective parenting that most of us were raised with consequences, rewards and bribes, and ultimatums. Ultimately, like pure, heavy, heavy, like control, feeling like we had to fix everything to this really light, lovely, abundant parenting.

Which is connective parenting where we really are focused on relationships, and really on creating that connection with our kids where they choose us. Which is ultimately, let’s be real, what humans really need to do anyway, because we really can’t control another human. Although, you know, I think if someone could patent some little pill that we could give somebody to follow everything, we would all want it but not really, primitive brain thinks that’s a good idea.

But anyway, so I helped moms transition and implement a new way that we don’t see modeled in society very often. It’s definitely not the mainstream dialogue about parenting. But it is beautiful and well-researched and works amazingly. So that’s what I get the privilege to do every single day and I love it.

And I love that we’re talking about this concept today, because I think it applies to parenting, and kids, and all areas of our life. Money, success, in so many different ways. But I’m excited to dive in on it because I think it’s just going to be relevant for all of us, no matter where we are today.

Kim: Perfect. Thank you. And for you guys who want to hear more about Andee, we’ve done a previous podcast before, I don’t know probably about 10 episodes ago or so. I really need to take notes of these numbers.

So let’s just talk about what is thriver’s guilt? How did we come up with this? And how would we explain it to someone and how it shows up in our life? So the topic was going to be survivor’s guilt and then I realized that survivor’s guilt is a little bit different than thriver’s guilt.

So there is some familiarity between the two. But how it came up for me, it was when you are experiencing like a different level of success. Or you’ve gotten to this newer version. Or it could be in the way of, we were talking about before the show started, like it could be being pregnant and then your neighbor having a miscarriage. Like it’s so touchy, it’s so sensitive. Or it could be like out-earning your partner, you know, or your friend or someone.

We talked about like just being in coach training and making money really quick. And then here’s your peer group that don’t have clients yet. It’s like it’s this guilt about thriving, and it shows up everywhere. Like it will show up in your bank account, it will show up in your bedroom, it will show up in relationships, in parenting, in different areas. It’s just a natural part of human behavior. And it’s stemmed from judgment and comparison.

So remember, my take is every single thing comes down to the reason that we suffer is because we judge and compare. And I’ve since then added compete.

Andee: I like that. I like the compete too. Yeah, that’s a good addition. I love this idea because I can see it as I was like thinking back on my life, it popping up. Popping up in different areas and feeling just conflicted, I think, as I was able. And I think we’re specifically focusing today on those times where you like figured something out or were successful or whatever.

And I remember probably the first time it came up for me was about just finances, I think. And just feeling like my husband had been able to start a business fairly early on as we were married. And we weren’t wealthy by any stretch of the imagination but we now had more than our friends that were still struggling through school and like, you know, doing all of those, you know, jobs that you do when you don’t have much education or much experience.

And we were doing better than a lot of them and feeling bad, or not wanting to talk about it. Or even not allowing myself to get something because I thought if someone else saw me get that they would feel bad. It was this idea that like I was going to make other people feel bad if I did this, that, or the other. So I would just play really small.

What was really interesting is that doesn’t really work. Because, well, first of all, you don’t really have that much power over other people. But really it’s just a bunch of mind drama in your own head about navigating and then you don’t really show up authentically you.

And I think that’s really like, if you were to boil everything down, I think that’s one of the big things that I thought about as we talked about this is when we’re in this, you know, place where we’re thriving and we’re feeling guilty about it. We’re trying to like not make too big of a show. We’re not being authentically us.

And I think anytime where something’s happening, and like you said it’s subconscious, we’re not purposely doing this. Anytime we’re not being authentically us I think it’s a good thing to just inspect, you know, whenever we notice it.

Kim: But it is a form of protection, right? Because we don’t want to be eliminated from the crowd, we don’t want to be excommunicated.

So like I’m thinking of like you’re in a trailer park, you know? And you’ve gotten really close with your neighbors, your friends. You’ve like, you know, done this together and then like you get a promotion or you build a house and you’re not living there anymore. And then the ones who are still there are like, “Oh yeah, Miss goody two shoes.” You know? And because your life does change because you will then adapt to those new people in your neighborhood, right, who maybe have a house that’s more expensive.

And I’m not by any means saying the trailer park is bad, I’m using it for like imagination. Like going from the rent house to the three-story house. Or going from, like moving from the rural area to the city and having the condo. You know, it’s the way that we see it.

The guilt is coming from the actual relationship left behind, it’s not really from the tangible, the house. It’s not from that, that’s not what’s happening here. It’s not about the amount of money that’s in the bank account. It’s what separates the relationship. It’s like not being able to have the same conversation anymore.

And then if there’s any part of blame, or victim, or any of that it bubbles to the surface. And then it’s seen as if it’s them. That’s where I see it showing up. Like when the child makes all stars and the neighbor’s child who’s the same age who’s the best friend doesn’t. There’s a thriver’s guilt where you feel apologetic.

Andee: My brain is just thinking about all of the examples I could bring up about having this idea that we need to apologize for our success, or hide our success, or downplay our success.

And what’s really fascinating is if I look back on the few people who have been really successful that I’ve noticed in my life, and when they have also matched that with not arrogance, but just a confidence about it. Just like an example of like, this is possible. Man, I’m so inspired.

Even if they are way out of my league as far as finances or success in some area, I am just so inspired by them because how they’re, I think, authentic. I think it’s the match, right? This is their success and they’re authentically matching it with who they are in the world, instead of trying to hedge or trying to shift based on where they are.

And, I mean, I can think of a couple people that literally blow my mind and are so inspiring because they’re not afraid to show the fancy car. But it’s not from like, “Look at my fancy car.” They don’t need any accolades, they’re just really being like, “Here’s my life.” They’re sharing their life, right?

And usually their energy is, “I’m doing amazing things and so can you. Like there’s no difference between where I am and where you are.” They don’t treat me differently. Because I think when we have the thriver’s guilt, we actually are not meaning to but we’re treating these other people as different. And I think that that’s a disservice for both.

Kim: That’s on us.

Andee: It’s like what if I looked at them, no matter if they’re still in a trailer park or there’s a dentist, you know, doctor, dentist, like, you know, whatever we would look up to and think like, “Wow, they’re really successful and very accomplished.” What if we were able to navigate all of that and just respect and honor?

And I always love like the namaste, like the highest part of me respects, honors, and, you know, the highest part of you. I totally botched that, you should probably restate that. But I just love this idea of like I’m successful and I know you can be successful. And you’re amazing, and I’m amazing, and we’re all amazing. And let me just be that for you.

And I think maybe I’m gone like on a little tangent off the dirt road here a little. But I just that’s what’s possible if we can acknowledge that maybe we’re coming from this place of thriver’s guilt and realizing, “Hey, this is actually not helpful for me or anybody I come in contact with.” And we start to question it and get curious. I don’t know if that resonates for you.

Kim: Yeah, I love that. I’ve often told my clients like, it’s really fun to, if you want to call it arrive, or to get to the next level, or to you know, like really tap into making, like especially as an entrepreneur or as a coach, like more sustainable money or more predictable money. Like there’s something different that happens. And then you suddenly have the options like to travel or to like buy a travel trailer or do the thing, you know?

And then there’s this like, “Well, I wanted you to come with me. Like, wait, you can do it too. Let me show you how to do it.” So I’ve told my coaches, I was like, “I want you to stay in for the long haul because I want you making so much money that we’re like traveling and doing things together. I don’t want to go off and do it by myself. I actually want to show you how it is possible and how we can all have it if we want it.

But we don’t all want it. And that’s okay too, but that’s where I think the thriver’s guilt comes in, is you actually feel responsible for exceeding, for thriving. You feel like it’s a negative thing or a bad thing. Because of the separation in the relationship.

I wanted to clear up too, is like when I’m talking about, and you said it too, and I’m talking about trailer park. I grew up in a trailer park so I’m using that as, you know, from my personal experience. But also from being an adult who loves to travel and go and doesn’t really like being tied down, I actually see a trailer park as an opportunity to have a house in different locations because it’s movable, you know? And because it’s not so permanent.

And so I don’t want it to sound like it’s coming from a better than. I’m not saying that at all. It’s like, you know, with the decisions you’ve made recently about the travel trailer and the kids and, you know, where you’re going. And I’ve seen like all of the shift and change that you’ve gone through from moving into that.

And like you’re saying, your husband being successful early on, and like having guilt and shame about that. But it shows up in parenting also. So how do you see it show up in parenting?

Andee: Yeah, I want to talk about with parenting because this is really interesting to look at it through this lens. Because there is like this camaraderie, I think that’s the right word, where you kind of are all commiserating. You’re in the woes of the kids and the hardships and all of that.

And it was an interesting thing to navigate when I started to feel like, “Oh, I think I’m switching some things and things are working.” And to figure out, do I even share that with people? Maybe I need to keep that to myself, because I don’t want anybody else to feel bad. And I also don’t want to feel like I’m telling them what to do. Or that what they’re doing is wrong.

Like there’s nothing, like it’s an interesting thing. Most of the time, I will say, when I look back on those years that I was discovering I didn’t share a lot. Because I didn’t want anyone to feel bad. And I was having success and people started asking like how are you getting your kids to do this and that? You know, when they did classical piano, and they would practice piano for like eight hours a day.

Well, you physically cannot make a child decided to practice piano for eight hours a day, you know? And not all of them, my oldest did not but some of the others did a lot. And like, you should have your kids do this or that this even means I’m better than you, like I can share this with you. I was just navigating this path of how do I share it from a place where I am feeling authentic.

And I think I waffled trying to not have it be like a guilty sense if I shared it. Like I don’t want to share this, I don’t want you to feel bad. I don’t want you to feel like I’m better than you. So it’s interesting how it’s like popped up into parenting.

It took a long time for me to decide to share. And even when I started sharing it, there was a lot of this same guilt about giving myself permission to share it and not make it mean I’m better than anybody. Really making sure I was clear, and I knew it didn’t, but like it would creep in. Like I was afraid people would think I was saying I was better or more qualified or whatever. I’m like, “No, you’re all amazing.”

Kim: You spoke on this earlier, when you talked about like when they’ve embodied it they become the inspiration. So once you embodied it, as it’s just who we are, then it’s unapologetic because you’ve actually embodied that new identity. And when we fully embody the new version of ourself, or the new whatever it is that we have attained unapologetically, then we’re in like that courageous confidence that’s not bragging or showing off or what you were just explaining.

Like I think it comes back to what you said earlier about the person, the doctor, the dentist, that moves on that does a thing you know? And how you look at, you know, some of these people and you’re like, “I’m so inspired because they’re the same person but they’ve embodied the new identity.” And you’re like, “Oh my god, I can relate to that part of them too. Oh my God, then I can have it too.”

Andee: Yeah, yeah. The embodying, I want to just say that like the embodying thing was the switch. I think when our success is tied up in our self-confidence or in our self-worth, then I think that’s when it’s a little bit harder to navigate this. But when it’s like this really has nothing to do with me, like it doesn’t make me one ounce better than anybody else. I truly believe that.

Like it doesn’t make me better. Like I don’t take credit for it, it’s not something that’s special, it’s just like this is something that I got to experience and live and I want to share it. But it doesn’t, it’s not tied into my self-worth. Does that make sense? Like I think there’s something about that, that when we embody it, we see the self-worth, and it’s separate from their accomplishments or their failures. It’s just like, it’s an eight.

And I think as we embody this then we can – I don’t know if that makes sense but it’s just like we embody it and we shift and we start to become more and more authentically us. And when we become more and more authentically us, then we can see other people more and more of who they really are.

It’s almost like we get a pair of glasses and we start to like see past the behavior and the shaming, or whatever they’re struggling with, their struggles. And we’re like able to see on the inside and I think that’s one of the things that’s offered to us as we do thrive.

And I think maybe it’s the essence of thriving is to embody this belief in humanity, of, “Hey, I don’t need to be shameful or regretful or hide the success because I don’t have a corner hold on this. This is like available to everybody and I actually want everybody to be able to experience their full potential.”

Kim: So let’s talk about, like let’s just kind of unveil the guilt and then let’s give a solution. So to unveil the guilt in my perspective, and then you can say what your perspective is. Or you can go first. I think we might come up with the same thing. I think the key is the difference between intellectualizing the new. Like getting it all in the head, getting it all here.

And so it’s like we do this with knowledge, right? We can’t ever know enough, we got to keep reading, we got to keep going, we got to keep, you know, learning, learning, learning. And then it’s all in our head because we haven’t integrated it in our life. We haven’t integrated it in the way that we are. And until we’ve integrated it we can’t embody it.

Because we integrate it mentally, emotionally, physically, and then there’s the whole part of the nervous system that has to physically embody. So you’re bringing all of these parts on board, the way you think, the way you feel, and the way it’s represented in the body.

So the shame, and guilt, and apology is actually coming from the unconscious beliefs and the unintegrated aspects of ourself. Of not making the soccer team, not getting picked for all stars, not getting the date for homecoming, right? That’s where it’s coming from.

That’s my explanation of unveiling it. It’s the unhealed trauma, big T or little T, the experiences that we’ve had that we haven’t processed in the past are actually still in our body. And then when this comes up the fear, or the PTSD, or the trigger, however you guys want to call that, is what we’re experiencing.

It’s the memory in the system that warns us of you’re going to get left behind. You’re going to be left out. You’re going to be made wrong. You’re going to be made talked about. They’re going to be pointing a finger. They’re going to be making fun of you. They think you’re better than them.

Like I think that’s what’s happening and that’s where the thriver’s guilt is coming from. And there’s a memory etched in our system and now we’re responding to those sensations. And we think it’s about the person because we’ll say, “I don’t want to be judgmental. I want to be happy for them. And I want it too and why does it feel like shit?” Right? What’s your take?

Andee: I just think what you said was perfect. I agree with all of it. I think that the awareness that that’s what it is, is everything. Because until you understand that, or get the awareness, maybe that’s all in our head to begin with, probably, right? But once we start to begin to realize it’s not me, it’s the unprocessed, it’s just the unaware story that I have. That’s where it lies, and also that’s where the shifting begins. You know, the awareness begins.

Kim: So it’s not personal, it’s mechanism. You’re agreeing with that, it’s not?

Andee: 100%. Well, I personally tried for years, right, I tried to just do it intellectually. And I knew better for a long time. And it wasn’t until I went beyond the mind, right? Went like into the emotional power and really honored and was gentle. I remember the first time someone said, you could just be gentle with yourself. You don’t have to beat yourself up through this. I’m thinking, “That’s an option? Like how do I do that?” I just didn’t even understand it.

But I think it’s like the recognition and then like the pure love and acceptance of like, “Okay, this is just where I am. It’s just a mechanism, I don’t need to judge myself. This isn’t who I am. This is just programming. This is just societal influence. It’s just the way I am. It’s just the way a human brain is.” Like if we can come to peace with all of that and then I feel like doors are opened after that. And we can start to shift things from a place of love, and compassion, and empathy.

But it doesn’t come from a place of, “Well, I’m being a jerk to people. I know I’m being a jerk, and I should stop judging people. I don’t want to judge people.” All the time judging ourselves, right, at the same time. It just doesn’t work.

Kim: It comes back to that, you and I have had this discussion before and we probably need to do a show on it, it’s clean compassion. Clean compassion is when you actually have the compassion and the empathy for yourself first. And it’s like really talking to that aspect of ourself that is afraid to be left out, that is afraid to be better than, that is afraid to be judged. You know, the comparison, all of that stuff.

It’s like, if we can actually have that clean compassion I don’t need to do this for anyone else, I actually need to do it for this younger part of myself or this aspect of me that feels a little scared, that feels a little timid. Yeah, I have compassion for her first.

Andee: Just being invited and aware that that’s a possibility is so powerful. Because if not, we just get lost in our story about it. We just function from the thriver’s guilt, like you’re calling it. I mean I have examples of like being stuck.

We were building a house, like going through plans and being like, “Oh, that’s too big, that will make the neighbors feel bad about themselves.” Like all ridiculous, right, now that I think about it. But just it permeates every part of our life when we’re trying to protect and we’re afraid and what will they think? And I don’t want to make them feel bad.

It can go on either side of the spectrum, right? As far as like playing small, or maybe overcompensating and trying to be, you know, feeling guilty either way you go because I think we’re grappling for something that lies inside of us. But we’re still thinking like, “I feel guilty because of them. I feel guilty because of the, you know, homeless person I see on the street. I shouldn’t have a house at all. Nobody should have houses.”

Just like our brains run the gamut and it will run that way. And if we can just recognize this is normal, I don’t need to fix it, I just need to feel it and then I can decide what I want to do about it. It’s so much better, you know, so much better. Because when we’re in thriver’s guilt we’re not actually thinking about anybody else but ourselves.

Kim: Exactly, and I just wrote that. I was like, I don’t even know if this is a thing by the way. Like I was just coming up with survivor’s guilt. And I was like, actually, the problem is not surviving this problem is when I started thriving.

So it takes me back to like I remember receiving the award for the highest earner at LCS, you know, The Life Coach School. And it’s like I had this dissonance and I was so aware of it. And a part of me, so on one side my mind is like, “Look at me. Hey, look at me. Hey, I have something to offer. I have something to share. Hey, hey, hey, I need you to recognize me, I need you to see me, I need you to use me, to utilize me.” Like I was trying to put that out there.

And then there was an aspect of me that was like, “Don’t look at me. No, then you’re going to judge me. Then you’re going to think I’m better than you or you’re going to hate me or you’re going to think I’m -” And so I had that running. I remember walking up too, like I was sweating.

And the week before I had just gotten the nomination for Woman of the Year and I was having the same experience there. I was hiding in a corner. Like I turned myself against the wall, like Mallory was there, she was at my table. And I was like I couldn’t back up far enough to get into that wall. And, you know, I couldn’t even come to the table with my family because I was like trying to hide.

 And yet, all of my struggle prior to that was like, “Hey guys, you need to see what I offer. You need to come and get this. You need some of this.” And I was like, “Nobody wants to buy anything. And I can’t even sell coaching for 100 bucks.” And, you know, I was like in that story.

And so it was like everyone needs to look at me, and then I get the opportunity and I get the stage, literally, you know, “Come on up, we’re going to put you in the spotlight.” And I’m like, “I’m going to die.” So either way I’m going to die. I’m going to die because they don’t see me and I’m left alone, and no one wants to recognize me. And I’m going to die because they’re seeing me and I’m going to die of this shame and this guilt and leaving, like you’re saying, like those who don’t have a house or those who haven’t made the money.

And it’s like the dissonance was so loud. And the whole time I’m thinking of this I was not in the experience. I was in this thought about like, “How do I get out of this? How do I get comfortable in this?” It was like the hot potato like we talked about at retreat, like how do I receive this? And for two days in Dallas I practiced when someone would come up to me and tell me congratulations I said, “Stop, download, receive.” I would tell myself that and I’m sure they thought, “This weird woman.”

But I would like look at them and I was like trying to receive that whatever it was they were telling me, right, “You did great.” Or “I’m so inspired.” I couldn’t even receive that, it was like water on a duck, it would just like fly off me. I was like I can’t receive that, it’s too much. It reminds me of the Marianne Williamson poem. You know, it’s like let’s just go back to shrinking and all go back to complaining. Like I know what that feels like.

Andee: Oh my gosh, as you were talking, yes, I know what that feels like.  I was thinking a couple of years ago I decided, I was talking to my husband and he’s like, “You should just like see, like send some feedback out.” Because I have a membership, right? My tribe is like my membership where I help moms implement connective parenting.

And so I sent out this email to everybody and they could send in a video. Anyway, I got like all of these responses back, they were talking about all their wins. And I didn’t watch them. What happened is they came in and I couldn’t watch any of them. I was like feeling nauseous and I wanted to throw up.

And so my husband was like, “Well, I’m watching them.” And he watched them and categorized them and like even transcribed them. He was like, “Maybe you can read them.” I couldn’t watch them. I still haven’t watched them. But it’s so funny, I need to go back and watch them, see if I can.

I realized at the time, well I didn’t realize actually what was exactly happening. But he was like, “This is so weird.” He was like, “People are literally sending in messages telling you how you’ve changed their lives with connect method parenting and you can’t even watch it?” He was like, “What is the matter with you?” And I said, “I actually have no idea. But the thought of watching those things right now makes me sick to my stomach.”

I could not receive them. And, you know, it’s just interesting as I’ve progressed and embodied, I mean, I still fluctuate sometimes where like there’s no way I can actually be having this influence or being helping people. Like, you know, and then like, “Oh my gosh, this is the most amazing thing. I’m totally helping people.” You know, it’s like the fluid thing, I think is normal theme and brain thing.

But to think back on that moment where I got just tons, I mean, they just kept coming in and they were videos, lots of them were videos and I could see their face. And I couldn’t watch more than like one second of each of them.

Kim: Oh, interesting. Let’s just go here for just for a second because I feel like it’s the same thing I experienced on the stage and at the, you know, the events and stuff. And can you detect, right now just talking about it, how it’s in the nervous system?

Andee: 100% because it makes no logical sense.

Kim: That’s right.

Andee: It makes no logic, it’s like, “Wait, you’ve been working so hard and putting this together and working with these moms nonstop. Why would you not receive?”

Kim: Not receive the prize.

Andee: Right? Why wouldn’t you be receiving their gratitude and their stories?

Kim: And it’s like we run across the finish line and then we’re like, “No, no, no, don’t give me the thing. Like no. Like no, no, what about the ones? What about the other ones? Let’s wait, let’s give everyone. Give me all of them and I’m going to put it on everyone else. That feels more comfortable. That’s feels better.

Andee: Yeah.

Kim: I would rather lift them up, because it’s uncomfortable when I am lifted up. That in a nutshell is thriver’s guilt.

Andee: Yeah, I was so visceral. And there wasn’t anything in the moment that I was consciously thinking. You know, I wasn’t like, “I don’t want to watch these.” You know, it was just, it was so nervous. It was all the nervous system.

Kim: All the nervous system. That’s what’s fascinating about the integrative coaching is we’re not just talking, and then even this podcast being More Than Mindset, we’re not just talking about thoughts. We’re talking about unconscious beliefs. And then we’re talking about how the system has created this path that aligns with that unconscious belief.

And so when you’re talking about transformation and change, we’re not just talking about positive affirmations. We’re talking about changing the identity and rewriting the systems of the body. Bringing in the fragmented part of our soul that thinks it’s unsafe.

Because what’s happening, right, you can imagine there, here’s our soul essence like, “Hey, let’s go out and let’s like create and contribute.” And it’s like coming out in our of our aura, right? So it’s like we treat it like it’s this little bitty diamond in the center of our heart. Like, “I just had this little call inside of me.”

That’s actually not how it is, the soul essence is like huge. It goes beyond us. Like you can feel it in the, you know, someone else’s essence in their aura. And so what I see happening is like the soul is coming up, it’s ready to go out and play. My soul is ready, like it loves to fly with these wide wings, you know. And just kind of be out there. Of course I’m a 6/2 so I’m like kind of outside of my head already.

But the system, like our nervous system, our endocrine system, like we’re thinking like fear and kidneys and just if you can put all of that together and imagine that, let’s just say it’s like this door or this vessel and we clamp it shut. I don’t want to experience being put on that pedestal. I don’t want to experience being out there and being seen in that way, being too much.

And so we clamp this vessel shut and then our soul is like trying to break and the hinges are popping, like parts of our body, it’s like, “Man, my neck hurts, my head hurts. I have all this pain.” Remember this for you? You would call me like, “I Have all this pressure in my head. And it’s like this expansion is trying to go and then our nervous system and our unconscious is saying, “No, no, no. It’s bad, it’s not good, you got to stay away from that. Someone else is going to feel terrible. Like making yourself better than someone else, that is sinful, Jesus would never ask for anything.”

Like all of that starts and then you have this push pull. And so you have this trying to break out. And then you have the resistance. And then you have the physical sensations. And then past that, if you don’t listen to those and you don’t have the awareness and you don’t change it, then you have the physical symptoms. It materializes in the physical world. You just can’t see it, we can’t prove it, we can’t put it in a lab, we can only experience it and then share it.

Like if you took your hands, and this is for anyone listening. If you took your hands and you had this vision of what you wanted to create in your life, and then you just opened it up and you made it bigger, made the vision bigger. Can you feel that? Can you feel that in your system? And then you close it in and you constrict it, and you brought it back. Can you feel that in your body? It’s fascinating, right?

Like, we have that ability to move that and we can fill it with each other, we can fill it with ourselves. And so when we have something that’s condensed in the body, it comes out in one area. It’s like so intense and then the mind is like, “That must mean that’s where the conditioning, the conditioning from society, from religion, from generational patterning. Like that story that we’ve been told of what’s going to happen if we get too big, if we’re too much.” Right? How about you? What’s been your take on that yet?

Andee: No, all of that. I’m just like, “Yes, yes, yes.” Like it’s really interesting to feel stepping into that possibility, the bigger vision of what I want to create. And then feeling my body trying to pull it back in. And you tell me, it feels like there’s always going to be a little bit of that push and pull. Like our brains are human brains and unless we, you know, get a different brain, which I don’t know, at this point it’s possible. You know, these are the bodies we’ve got, these are the brains we’ve got. I think it just becomes easier and easier maybe to navigate that.

But I used to believe I was going to be able to get rid of the guilt, and get rid of the shame, and get rid of the, you know. And I think we all have, you know, some people it’s more shame, we all have different bends. Some people it’s more guilt. Like I was like I’m a heavy shamer, self shamer. You know, going on a journey really to try to like eradicate that isn’t really navigating with the nervous system.

Kim: You’re actually bringing it all on board. You’re allowing it to be and your awareness, awareness is the healer. So the awareness of, “Oh, this is how I’ve been conditioned to believe.” And we think, because we’re black and white thinkers, we think if we get over it we’re going to be done. So we’re like, “Would you fix me? Would you do hypnotherapy on me? Would you do an energy session on me? Would you take me into the abyss and make this go away?” That’s what we want, right?

And we get, so I am all of those things and I can take people there for sure. And we go dancing in the portals and all of this stuff of consciousness, right? You’ve been at retreats so you kind of feel that, it’s so fascinating and fun. But it’s only to create an imprint of possibility and potentiality, it doesn’t mean that the thing went away. The thing is always out there, right?

Now we can take it, we can tack it behind us, we can like hook it to something else. And we’re like, “It’ll never come back in again.” But here’s the thing, again I can’t prove it in a science lab. I can only prove it from working with thousands of women over the years in business, you know, when we’re talking about mental, physical, and emotional health.

You know, even as a hairdresser I would see it like alopecia areata, they were losing their hair. Their skin, they had eczema, psoriasis. They were also in like these oppressed marriages and situations. And they were in these jobs, you know, that wasn’t working for them. So it was showing up in the material bodies, I mean, in their material world in their physical body.

And so what I’ve experienced from it, so I’m working with, I’ve worked with Suzy on rewriting my story and with Danielle on like embodying the confidence, and like the dress and the style and, you know, all of these things. And the same story has come up over and over and over again. It’s less triggered, I’m more aware of it, but there’s still pieces of it.

So like yesterday we were sifting through another piece of it and I was like, “It takes a team.” I believe that that’s what this work requires, a community. You know, so that we can call the conditioning out. You know, so that we can help hold each other in that, “Hey, here it is again.” Or “It’s okay, that’s what the human condition is.” Like you said. But when we expect someone to have the magic wand and make it go away and we’re never going to experience it again. What’s your thought?

Andee: I think for most mortals that’s probably not a helpful thought that serves us, to think we’re going to have it go away.

Kim: What’s the problem with it if you learn how to dance with it?

Andee: That’s right, that’s what I’m saying. It can be there, we like make friends with it and we’re like, “Oh, you’re part of my experience, this isn’t a problem.”

It’s interesting, because when you were talking about this it made me think of something that came up with, you know, in the course of working with moms a lot of times I have moms ask me like, “So when are the tantrums totally going to disappear?”

Kim: Yes.

Andee: I used to kind of be like, “Well, that’s my goal too.” But I said, “You know what? There’s adults that have tantrums.” Like our nervous system is alive and well until the moment, you know, we die. I don’t think the goal is that the tantrums totally go away. I think the goal is that we get better and better and more emotionally mature. So we’re 40 we don’t flop in the grocery store because our, you know, significant other says that we can’t get the cookies. We’re like, “Ah, I want the cookies!’ We just, like we navigate it.

And when we do it in a healthy way in connection with our nervous system, we navigate beautifully. There’s other ways that look like we’re navigating it, we’re just suppressing it, we’re really angry of it coming out, right? We’re not having tantrums, we’re civilized, but we’re still really angry and upset and feeling really taken advantage of. When we get out of this idea of like we have to fix it. It’s like what if nothing needs to be fixed?

Kim: Yes.

Andee: Everything just needs to be felt. And if we give ourselves permission to feel. And I must have said that to one of my clients, I was talking to one of them, she messaged like, “That whole thing, these emotions don’t need to be fixed, they need to be felt. I’ve been thinking that all week, you told me that last week.” And I’m like, “That’s good.” I must have said it.

Kim: You got to feel it to heal it, man.

Andee: You’ve got to feel it to heal it. It doesn’t need to be fixed, it needs to be felt. And it just is like this reframing all of a sudden things shift for us because now it’s like, “Oh, this isn’t a problem the way I thought it was.”

Like, you know, specifically what we’re talking about today, like this guilt I’m feeling isn’t a problem, I just got feel it. And when I feel it, it’s just kind of like it’s there, it’s not controlling me. It maybe even dissipates and goes away.” And just that applies to everything, right? It’s like, “Oh, there’s nothing broken? Crazy. There’s nothing broken it’s just maybe I can be more fully human.”

Kim: When I think about the health of our emotional and nervous system, like if you think about your immune health, right. So it’s like, you may come across someone who has a virus, but you are like in a very healthy state and you just like don’t even get it. But then when you’re a little rundown, you’re kind of beat up, you kind of haven’t been sleeping, you’ve been really nervous and stress. And then you come across someone with it you could possibly get it, right? Because your immune system is low.

So I think about that with our nervous and emotional system. So right now you and I are having a conversation, we’re in awareness, we had like a coach call yesterday. And like we’re all up in the good stuff, right? We’re like in the nectar of the earth, we’re in the juice. And so our immune system, emotional and nervous system, immune system is really high. And so someone can say something and it just rolls off like a duck. Like it just doesn’t even like enter us because our immune system to it is really, really high. We’re really protected.

Then we’ll have a moment where we’re kind of feeling crappy, and we’re overworked, and like we have a disgruntled client, or you know, people are like giving us a hard time and they’re texting or the neighbors mad or whatever, right? Something’s going on. So we’re a little deflated and then here comes a punch. That’s when we’re more likely to be contaminated by it.

And so when you ask the question about will it ever go away? I think that’s what determines the difference is, are you keeping your awareness level at high, you know, like you would keep your immune system up? Are you keeping, are you doing your own work? Are you in consciousness? Are you in awareness? Are you present? Because it only sneaks in when we’re no longer present. When we go into the judging, comparing, when we go into the disappointment, when we entertain that and we can bring in Abraham Hicks on this, right?

It’s all about just staying in the story in the vibration of where you want to be. It’s staying on, “Oh, that’s a great thought. Oh my God, what if I really thought that again? And what if I added on to that thought?” And then we start feeling better and better and better and better. And so then our immune system is really, really high. And somebody tells us something and it doesn’t really affect us. Does that relate?

Andee: Yeah, it relates. I like to think about it like it can roll off me like Teflon. It’s like I become Teflon.

Kim: I think the difference is the untethered soul. And so it’s like the soul can’t be compressed unless we mentally compress it. So the soul literally is like this creative entity that’s here to contribute and to evolve and to change and to experience.

And so it’s like when we are in resistance when we when we locked down and shut down. That’s where that push pull is at. And when we can allow it to be free and to float and just to be out there, then we can dance with the darkness. We can dance with the shadow. We can dance with where other people are and where we used to be. And we’re in that clean compassion and we’re just like bringing all of this together. And it’s like, Yeah, come and sit with me disappointment. Come and sit with me sadness.

Andee: Yeah.

Kim: That fear of being left out, you know, or being judged for being better than, like come and sit with me, what’s happening hon?

Andee: Well, I think when we become more in tune, I don’t know if that’s the right word, or more all the emotions that we’ve been afraid of because we thought they meant something big and terrible, like if we’re not afraid of feeling the whole gamut. In fact, we might even appreciate the ones that we maybe previously called negative because we know they’re the gateway to the other side. And so yeah, it’s just so powerful.

But yet our brains are like, you know, just so convinced that we can eliminate things and eradicate things and like, “I’m just going to never feel that emotion again, I’m going to ditch that one.” And it’s like you need it, actually. You don’t have to feel it all the time, you don’t have to indulge in it.

But like even going back to like guilt, like I don’t love to roll around in guilt, and like feed it a lot of fuel. But I think it can teach me a lesson. It can help me. I can just like see it and say like, “Oh, that’s what’s happening for me right now. Okay.” It’s just information,

Kim: Just information. And so a takeaway would be I’m feeling guilty because… And just let it come from you. I’m feeling guilty because … I’m feeling guilty because they’re going to think I’m trying to be better than them. I’m feeling guilty because I’m going to be left out and that would mean I’m not good enough. That will mean I’m not, right, who I want to be or whatever.

Andee: I’m not a good person. I’m not worthy. I’m not, yeah, I’m going to die.

Kim: I’m going to die, yeah, like I say “I’m going to die alone and sick. And no one’s going to come to my funeral. I don’t know, you know, it’s whatever the brain is telling us.

But we’re running out of time so do you have anything that we didn’t cover that you want to go over? Like what would be your answer to someone who has thriver’s guilt. Like the parent who’s changed their way of doing and now they have these children who are excelling and attentive and connected. And they have their BFF or their neighbors who were like, “What just happened?” And their kids at the same age, what would you say to them?

Andee: Yeah, just struggling to navigate it. Awareness, I think you hit the nail on the head. Like just being aware that you’re feeling the guilt. And where is it coming from? And I love what you said like I’m feeling guilty because… And just seeing what comes up, I think that’s a huge takeaway, And has been a huge takeaway for me as I’ve really tried to dive into this and understanding.

Anything that gives me more awareness that helps me see things as just more neutral and as information, that gives me insight into what’s going on inside my body. I think that has been. as I’ve done it personally, the biggest thing. The awareness, like when I don’t have my awareness, when I’m not doing the things, and for me one of the big things is journaling, writing down some stuff, dumping my thoughts out, like seeing what’s happening in my brain.

You know, when I’m not doing that consistently it’s like me not cleaning out my fridge, pretty soon I can’t tell what’s good, bad, and I don’t even know what to fix for dinner because it’s just messy and I can’t make sense of it. And I just start running on autopilot, you know.

And so just asking, I think, the question, “I’m feeling this because…” And just see what happens, I think if someone just did that, they’d be golden.

Kim: Yeah, and just so you know, we’re going to resist writing it down, we always do. One of the simplest things is writing it, or tapping it, or saying it, and we just tell ourself a story. I’m going to remember that. I’m going to get that. I don’t need to do that, I already know that.

Andee: Do it anyway, that’s what I’d say. Do it anyway.

Kim: Do it anyway.

Andee: And if you miss a few days don’t beat yourself up, just start when you remember, you know. But I also just like love recognizing that that is a story if your brain is going to resist it. Because sometimes we think, “Oh, I’m not wanting to do it, it must mean I shouldn’t do it. It must mean it doesn’t serve me.” You know, we have a story about that, too.

Kim: Don’t do anything that doesn’t feel good.

Andee: Yeah, you know, it’s like well, maybe it’s just your brain saying, “I don’t want to do that. I’ve never done that before. That’s hard. I don’t have time.” You know, it’s just normal. And then you’re like, “Okay, I’m going to do it.”

Kim: Since we started the Punch Line Approach journal guide, like I’ve had more people contact me that said, “Thank you for the prompts, like you just putting like, “This is what’s happening, but what I really want is this.” That that opened up that unconscious to start coming out through them, you know, and to be able to see it.

So for those of you who want to try the journaling, do the because. You know, start with that, like just have something where you can actually finish the sentence. It’s like, you know, I am afraid that … And then let it flow and just don’t worry about what it looks like or anybody reading it or ever needing to go back and look at it again. Because what’s happening is you need the paper and the pen for the unconsciousness to flow out of there so that you can come to the clean space.

Like what Andee said, it’s like we have this processor inside of our head but we can’t get to it because we’ve got so much junk packed on top of it for our safety. We’re like, “Hey, don’t forget, they were an asshole. Don’t forget, they did that.” And so we keep all of that inside of our head then we don’t have access to the brain’s normal function, which is to process and to solve problems. Instead, we just stay in the problem.

Andee: Stay in the mess. I’m so glad you brought up this topic, I think just having people have a name for it is going to be really helpful to work through it and to say, “Oh, maybe that’s happening.” You know?

Kim: I’m curious, I’m always like, “Can I just make up titles and names?” You know, like the success shaming or success shame, or you know, the thriver’s guilt.  And I was like, I didn’t even go and look, I try to stay away from like taking things from somewhere else because I really like to be just letting things flow through in its raw state. And then us staying on a topic for a whole week, you know, in the container, in the coaching group, in the More Than Mindset, you know, in Clubhouse and just keeping it going by the end of the week, it’s almost like you’ve mastered this new level of awareness of something else.

Andee: Yeah, I love that. I love that unpacking, unpacking, unpacking more awareness, for sure.

Kim: And then having other people, you know.

Andee: Other people, yeah. Our brains want to say, “No, now think about this. Now think about that.” But like you said it’s powerful to stick on one topic. And focus.

Kim: I’m going to link Andee’s info down below so you can actually reach out, see what she has going on. She does have a membership for parenting. And she does one on one coaching. Is that right, Andee? Yeah. And you also have some free resources or some assistance and resources for your clients that you’re working with also.

So she’s also in the more than mindset Facebook group, you’ll see this podcast come out and have the opportunity to ask questions. And then we’ll come on live and discuss it in the group.

That’s it. That’s all I got for this week. Do you have anything you want to leave before we hop off?

Andee: No, sounds good. It’s so fun to unpack this and talk about this. I feel like I came away with some new awarenesses and just reminders too, of the importance of this work and of what’s possible for all of us. So thank you,

Kim: I’m going to just leave this mantra for you guys who are listening, it is safe to thrive. It is safe to thrive. And just let that drop into your system. You may feel some resistance, it may feel like electricity running through your body, that’s your nervous system that’s activated. And just stay with it and keep breathing. Keep bringing the breath down to the belly, feel the ribs expand, it is safe to thrive. And just notice what comes up.

Allow it to be there, that’s dancing with the shadow. When you’re actually dancing with the resistance that’s like, “No it’s not, no it’s not. No it’s not.” It’s safe to thrive. And then you begin integrating, acclimating, and then you embody that permission to thrive. And then you can receive it. You won’t be running around like us, “Don’t look at me. Don’t look at me. I can’t listen to the videos. I can’t be seen on stage.” All of that stuff.

All right, my friend, thank you for coming on. And thank you guys for listening. Let us know and like post it on social media, share this episode with someone who you think can benefit from it. That’s it. Bye-bye. 

Thanks for listening to this episode of More Than Mindset.